Episode 1: How To Buy Insurance
In this first episode of "New-to-Practice Physicians: What you need to know," we discuss the fundamentals of how to buy medical liability insurance.
Lauren Ager, TMLT's Assistant Vice President of Underwriting and Business Development, reviews different insurance types to suit your needs, and describes additional, valuable coverages included in all TMLT policies. Running time: 16:29.
Also available on Apple podcasts.
Transcript
Tony Passalacqua:
Hello, and welcome to this edition of TMLT's podcast, TrendsMD. I'm your host, Tony Passalacqua, and this season our topic is New-to-Practice Physicians: What you need to know. Today, we are joined by Lauren Ager, TMLT's Assistant Vice President of Underwriting and Business Development. She will be here to discuss the basics of how to buy insurance. Welcome, Lauren.
Lauren Ager:
Hi, Tony. Happy to be here.
Tony Passalacqua:
I was wondering if you could tell us a little bit about yourself and your role at TMLT. First off, how long have you been with TMLT?
Lauren Ager:
I started with TMLT in 2017. Uh, I was hired to take on some of our out-of-state operations to manage the team of underwriters that was focused on our operations outside of Texas.
But over the few years after that, um, I ended up managing the entire underwriting team. So, focusing on our underwriting integrity. Also working with underwriters and agents and our sales team to make sure that we continue to grow our book of business in a profitable way.
Tony Passalacqua:
Well, I'm very happy that you're here today. So, let's start with probably the most basic of questions. What is malpractice insurance?
Lauren Ager:
Malpractice insurance, uh, what we mostly call medical professional liability insurance, covers you for your legal fees, court costs, any settlements or judgements that might arise should you get sued by a patient, if they are claiming that they received inadequate care.
Even if the claim is found to be meritless, there's still defense costs associated with defending a claim, which can be very expensive. Physicians in Texas are not required by law to carry malpractice insurance; however, coverage is usually required if you have a hospital appointment, if you're working with a group, or to contract with certain payers: Medicare, Medicaid.
Tony Passalacqua:
Perfect. Lauren, what is the difference between claims made versus occurrence insurance?
Lauren Ager:
Okay. So, with occurrence coverage, your premiums are a little bit more expensive, and here's why. So, with occurrence coverage, the name kind of speaks for itself. It's based on when the occurrence actually happened.
For instance, if you had a policy period active, say from, you know, January 1st last year to December 31st, last year, and you saw a patient during that time, there was a, a, you know, a surgical event that happened during that time. But later on, the next year, a claim actually gets reported. It's the policy period that was active at the time the occurrence happened, is gonna be triggered. That policy stays kind of, um, with the ability to be triggered, uh, you know, forever. So you're gonna pay a little bit more premium.
With claims-made coverage, the name is representative of how the policy period will be triggered. So, when you have a current claims-made policy that's active, and a claim is reported against you, it's that current active policy period that is gonna respond should the unfortunate occur and you do have a claim reported against you.
As you renew your policy year over year, the liability period that your policy is picking up is gonna grow bigger and bigger and bigger.
And then at some point, if you decide you want to kind of wall off that, you know, liability period, you're moving to a group and they want you to kind of start fresh with the group, you would be required to purchase tail coverage, which is generally 200% of the expiring premium. But then, that policy, you know, contains all of your liability for, you know, year over year that you are renewing the policy.
And once you pay that tail premium, that policy is gonna always respond, should a claim get reported for an occurrence, an incident, something that happened during that period. And if you're curious which one would be right for you, there's really no right or wrong answer.
I just recommend that you talk to your colleagues, talk to your instructors, you know, talk to an insurance professional to figure out, you know, based on your circumstances, your individual needs, which type of policy would best fit those needs.
Tony Passalacqua:
What about moonlighting coverage? What is that?
Lauren Ager:
Moonlighting coverage is offered to physicians that are still currently in their residency or fellowship program. Many physicians are often, while they're still doing their training, they are what's called moonlighting, working outside of their training program, up to around 30 hours per week. So, we do offer those physicians in training a moonlighting policy that generally has a little bit cheaper premiums and also comes with the benefit of being able to be converted over to a full policy whenever that position is outside of their training program, should they stay with TMLT. One of the benefits of that policy is that we don't require for tail to be purchased if they're converting their policy to a regular policy with TMLT.
Tony Passalacqua:
We offer other coverages at TMLT, often included within the policy. Can you describe some of those coverages?
Lauren Ager:
Sure, Tony. One of the primary coverages that is a great value added benefit on our policy is what we call Medefense coverage. Medefense will cover or reimburse actually for legal expenses, fines, and penalties associated with any disciplinary proceedings, tax audits instituted by certain agencies, investigation by the Texas Medical Board or when you have to undergo a peer review committee at the hospital.
Another great benefit added into our policy is cyber insurance. Um, cyber insurance is a big concern for many physicians and many practices these days. It provides coverage for network security, privacy incidents, and extends payments from ransomware threat, data and system recovery costs from a cyber event.
Employment practice liability insurance or EPLI, provides coverage for your practice for any employment related discrimination, harassment, hostile work environment, you know, civil rights violations, any misuse of social media. That's a coverage that's more associated with your employment side of your practice.
We also offer Premises coverage, which does include compensatory damages for claims arising out of injury or damages to any patients that occur on your premises. This would be different from your professional liability coverage that would be triggered by your patient care. This would be more in line with something like somebody trips and falls in your waiting room.
Some of the other coverages that our policy offers, locum tenens should you need to be out for any extended period of time or even a short amount of time, you may have a physician come and fill in at your practice and be able to share in the limits of liability. Maybe you don't want to completely add them to your policy, you just need somebody to fill in. So our policy does provide this for free where you can have another physician come and fill in at your practice.
Should you be working as a medical director, there is coverage available under our policy for an additional $250. If you were to go out and get this elsewhere from a different carrier, generally those premiums can cost between $2,000 to $5,000 to get this coverage standalone. But we realize that there is a big need for proper coverage for medical directors and for those activities. So we do include that at a lower premium on our policy.
Tony Passalacqua:
So I have a quick follow up question. So you talked about premises coverage. Do you still need a business owner policy coverage as well?
Lauren Ager:
Many of these policies would not replace the need for say, general liability coverage. So, it does, you know, intend to pick up some of the gray area that might land in between some of your other insurance needs. So, yes, you would probably still need a business owner policy depending on the nature of your practice.
Tony Passalacqua:
Lauren, a component of insurance is limits. Can you give us a little bit more information on that?
Lauren Ager:
Sure. The limits of liability listed on your policy breakdown into that you have two limits.
The first limit that's listed is called your per claim limit. Um, the amount of your per claim limit is the maximum amount that the company will pay for any judgment or settlement on your behalf. Um, any cost associated with defending you on the claim, however, are outside of this limit, so they do not subtract from the available limit that is available for any claim.
The second limit you'll see listed on your policy is what's called an aggregate limit. In general, three times the per claim limit. This is the max amount that the company will pay for all claims that you incur during that policy year.
Tony Passalacqua:
One of the questions we do receive quite often and that I think anyone who is insured asks, is how much coverage should I have?
Lauren Ager:
That's a tough question. It really depends on the individual's needs. Um, one of the biggest driving factors is what would be required in any contract. I believe we touched on this a little bit earlier, but if you are going to work at a hospital or receive hospital privileges, many times the hospital will determine the amount of liability coverage you have to have in place or, and also sometimes the type of coverage you have to have in place.
If you're joining a group, then your contract with that group might be determining how much coverage you have in place. Also, sometimes your payer contracts might have a stipulation that you must require a minimum limit of liability. So it really just depends on what your contract needs are or, absent of any of those contracts, you have to determine how much coverage you need based on your exposure. Maybe you are a surgical specialty, you might have a little bit higher risk? Maybe you might wanna carry a little bit higher limits. If you are doing something that's fairly minor and fairly low risk, um, you're not performing surgery, you're patient population is generally healthy, then you might not need to carry as high of limits as some of the other physicians out there.
Tony Passalacqua:
That's kind of what we see with like gyn vs. ob-gyn, right?
Lauren Ager:
Right. So with an ob-gyn you know, if you're delivering babies, there is a really long statute of limitations. And so ob-gyns, you know, could be exposed to a malpractice claim for many years after they deliver a baby.
There are so many variables that factor into the decision on what limits to purchase. TMLT cannot advise you on which limits to get. We have a number of offerings out there for you, though.
Tony Passalacqua:
Do you think that maybe talking to your peers like the, the new-to-practice physician, maybe them talking to their peers is a great way to make a decision around what policy they should get and maybe what limits?
Lauren Ager:
Absolutely. When you're talking with your peers in a certain specialty, in a certain region, they're gonna have a little bit more verifiable evidence of what's worked for them. And they've probably also been talking to their peers out in the community about the appropriate limits to carry.
So it's the great place to start when you're trying to determine what you need to purchase with your malpractice policy.
Tony Passalacqua: Lauren, what are some other criteria new physicians should consider when they're looking at purchasing insurance from different medical malpractice carriers?
Lauren Ager:
There's quite a few things that an individual might want to consider when they're shopping for their malpractice coverage.
One of the most important probably being the financial stability of that company. Should you have paid a policy premium and want to make sure that there's coverage in place, you do not want to be with a carrier that's financially unstable, may potentially become insolvent. It doesn't happen that often in our industry, but it does. It is an important thing to look at.
We talked earlier about, you know, asking your colleagues what limits they might recommend. Some other things you might want to discuss with them are, you know, what is the customer service that you've received when calling in or emailing or trying to just do general business with your carrier? If you've had a malpractice claim, what was your experience with the claims team? Did you feel supported through the process? Were you able to get quick and easy responses? Did that process go smoothly and give you comfort in a time that can be very difficult for a physician? Do they have, you know, robust risk management programs that you can utilize for your practice? Do you have somebody that you can call when you have general questions?
Those are often big distinguishing characteristics between various companies.
What does the policy contract look like? Does the individual have consent to settle in a claim? Or is that right taken away from them? We talked earlier about defense costs. Is that included in the limit of liability that you carry? Or is that something that the company is offering outside of your limit of coverage, so you still have your full limit should there be a settlement or a judgment. What is the company's philosophy on settling claims? On defending claims? Are they quick to settle or are they going to stand side-by-side with you during the claims process and defend you until the end.
Again, these are all questions that may seem maybe a little overwhelming, but it's good to have a conversation with your colleagues just so you can find out what really has come up during the process when you are practicing and thinking about your day-to-day needs.
Tony Passalacqua:
What are some basic tips and tricks that you feel new-to-practice physicians should know about with their new that they have?
Lauren Ager:
It's important to remain transparent with the carrier, to fully disclose all information about your practice. Keep them up to date on any changes in your practice, whether it be adding new staff, changing locations, adding new procedures, you know, anything to make sure that you have the proper coverage endorsed onto your [00:14:00] policy.
If you have not reported a big change in your practice, there is a chance that a claim would not be covered if you didn't properly notify the carrier. Also, if you are a member of a group and somebody else, like an admin is managing the policy for the whole entire group, it would be important to make sure that you still are aware of what coverage you have in place and that should you leave that group that your coverage was properly maintained; tail was purchased if needed.
Tony Passalacqua:
Lauren, do you think an important aspect for new-to-practice physicians to potentially assess is maybe what coverage is needed at their location and how does tail work after?
Lauren Ager:
Yes, absolutely. I think this is one of the most important things that we see come up months or years after a physician leaves the group. If they didn't have a good understanding of who was responsible for what with regards to their malpractice coverage during their time with the group, we've seen physicians that leave and their tail coverage was not properly secured. Therefore, leaving the physician with a bare period and not covered for a period of their time practicing. So it's really important when you start negotiations with a group to make sure that you understand who is responsible for what; who's responsible for paying the annual premium on your policy; and then, should you leave, what happens to that coverage at your time of departure? Will the tail be purchased by your employer or will that be your responsibility?
I think, especially at that time, it is important to follow up and make sure that you do have the documentation. That you do have the proper coverage in place once you terminate your employment with that employer.
Tony Passalacqua:
If you could pick out one or two takeaways for a new to practice physician to remember about buying insurance, what would it be?
Lauren Ager:
I think it's most important to consider what value you're getting for the amount of premium that you're paying. If you're looking for the lowest premium in the market, you might not be getting all of the services - all of the claims support, all of the financial stability that comes with a responsible carrier. And those things are really important when deciding which carrier to purchase your malpractice coverage from.
Tony Passalacqua:
Thank you, Lauren, for joining us in today's podcast.
Lauren Ager:
Thank you for having me.
Tony Passalacqua:
As always, thank you to our listeners. Please feel free to contact us with any questions at 1-800-580-8658 or by checking out our resources by visiting us at www.tmlt.org.
Additional episodes in this series:
Disclaimer
Lauren Ager, TMLT's Assistant Vice President of Underwriting and Business Development, reviews different insurance types to suit your needs, and describes additional, valuable coverages included in all TMLT policies. Running time: 16:29.
Also available on Apple podcasts.
Transcript
Tony Passalacqua:
Hello, and welcome to this edition of TMLT's podcast, TrendsMD. I'm your host, Tony Passalacqua, and this season our topic is New-to-Practice Physicians: What you need to know. Today, we are joined by Lauren Ager, TMLT's Assistant Vice President of Underwriting and Business Development. She will be here to discuss the basics of how to buy insurance. Welcome, Lauren.
Lauren Ager:
Hi, Tony. Happy to be here.
Tony Passalacqua:
I was wondering if you could tell us a little bit about yourself and your role at TMLT. First off, how long have you been with TMLT?
Lauren Ager:
I started with TMLT in 2017. Uh, I was hired to take on some of our out-of-state operations to manage the team of underwriters that was focused on our operations outside of Texas.
But over the few years after that, um, I ended up managing the entire underwriting team. So, focusing on our underwriting integrity. Also working with underwriters and agents and our sales team to make sure that we continue to grow our book of business in a profitable way.
Tony Passalacqua:
Well, I'm very happy that you're here today. So, let's start with probably the most basic of questions. What is malpractice insurance?
Lauren Ager:
Malpractice insurance, uh, what we mostly call medical professional liability insurance, covers you for your legal fees, court costs, any settlements or judgements that might arise should you get sued by a patient, if they are claiming that they received inadequate care.
Even if the claim is found to be meritless, there's still defense costs associated with defending a claim, which can be very expensive. Physicians in Texas are not required by law to carry malpractice insurance; however, coverage is usually required if you have a hospital appointment, if you're working with a group, or to contract with certain payers: Medicare, Medicaid.
Tony Passalacqua:
Perfect. Lauren, what is the difference between claims made versus occurrence insurance?
Lauren Ager:
Okay. So, with occurrence coverage, your premiums are a little bit more expensive, and here's why. So, with occurrence coverage, the name kind of speaks for itself. It's based on when the occurrence actually happened.
For instance, if you had a policy period active, say from, you know, January 1st last year to December 31st, last year, and you saw a patient during that time, there was a, a, you know, a surgical event that happened during that time. But later on, the next year, a claim actually gets reported. It's the policy period that was active at the time the occurrence happened, is gonna be triggered. That policy stays kind of, um, with the ability to be triggered, uh, you know, forever. So you're gonna pay a little bit more premium.
With claims-made coverage, the name is representative of how the policy period will be triggered. So, when you have a current claims-made policy that's active, and a claim is reported against you, it's that current active policy period that is gonna respond should the unfortunate occur and you do have a claim reported against you.
As you renew your policy year over year, the liability period that your policy is picking up is gonna grow bigger and bigger and bigger.
And then at some point, if you decide you want to kind of wall off that, you know, liability period, you're moving to a group and they want you to kind of start fresh with the group, you would be required to purchase tail coverage, which is generally 200% of the expiring premium. But then, that policy, you know, contains all of your liability for, you know, year over year that you are renewing the policy.
And once you pay that tail premium, that policy is gonna always respond, should a claim get reported for an occurrence, an incident, something that happened during that period. And if you're curious which one would be right for you, there's really no right or wrong answer.
I just recommend that you talk to your colleagues, talk to your instructors, you know, talk to an insurance professional to figure out, you know, based on your circumstances, your individual needs, which type of policy would best fit those needs.
Tony Passalacqua:
What about moonlighting coverage? What is that?
Lauren Ager:
Moonlighting coverage is offered to physicians that are still currently in their residency or fellowship program. Many physicians are often, while they're still doing their training, they are what's called moonlighting, working outside of their training program, up to around 30 hours per week. So, we do offer those physicians in training a moonlighting policy that generally has a little bit cheaper premiums and also comes with the benefit of being able to be converted over to a full policy whenever that position is outside of their training program, should they stay with TMLT. One of the benefits of that policy is that we don't require for tail to be purchased if they're converting their policy to a regular policy with TMLT.
Tony Passalacqua:
We offer other coverages at TMLT, often included within the policy. Can you describe some of those coverages?
Lauren Ager:
Sure, Tony. One of the primary coverages that is a great value added benefit on our policy is what we call Medefense coverage. Medefense will cover or reimburse actually for legal expenses, fines, and penalties associated with any disciplinary proceedings, tax audits instituted by certain agencies, investigation by the Texas Medical Board or when you have to undergo a peer review committee at the hospital.
Another great benefit added into our policy is cyber insurance. Um, cyber insurance is a big concern for many physicians and many practices these days. It provides coverage for network security, privacy incidents, and extends payments from ransomware threat, data and system recovery costs from a cyber event.
Employment practice liability insurance or EPLI, provides coverage for your practice for any employment related discrimination, harassment, hostile work environment, you know, civil rights violations, any misuse of social media. That's a coverage that's more associated with your employment side of your practice.
We also offer Premises coverage, which does include compensatory damages for claims arising out of injury or damages to any patients that occur on your premises. This would be different from your professional liability coverage that would be triggered by your patient care. This would be more in line with something like somebody trips and falls in your waiting room.
Some of the other coverages that our policy offers, locum tenens should you need to be out for any extended period of time or even a short amount of time, you may have a physician come and fill in at your practice and be able to share in the limits of liability. Maybe you don't want to completely add them to your policy, you just need somebody to fill in. So our policy does provide this for free where you can have another physician come and fill in at your practice.
Should you be working as a medical director, there is coverage available under our policy for an additional $250. If you were to go out and get this elsewhere from a different carrier, generally those premiums can cost between $2,000 to $5,000 to get this coverage standalone. But we realize that there is a big need for proper coverage for medical directors and for those activities. So we do include that at a lower premium on our policy.
Tony Passalacqua:
So I have a quick follow up question. So you talked about premises coverage. Do you still need a business owner policy coverage as well?
Lauren Ager:
Many of these policies would not replace the need for say, general liability coverage. So, it does, you know, intend to pick up some of the gray area that might land in between some of your other insurance needs. So, yes, you would probably still need a business owner policy depending on the nature of your practice.
Tony Passalacqua:
Lauren, a component of insurance is limits. Can you give us a little bit more information on that?
Lauren Ager:
Sure. The limits of liability listed on your policy breakdown into that you have two limits.
The first limit that's listed is called your per claim limit. Um, the amount of your per claim limit is the maximum amount that the company will pay for any judgment or settlement on your behalf. Um, any cost associated with defending you on the claim, however, are outside of this limit, so they do not subtract from the available limit that is available for any claim.
The second limit you'll see listed on your policy is what's called an aggregate limit. In general, three times the per claim limit. This is the max amount that the company will pay for all claims that you incur during that policy year.
Tony Passalacqua:
One of the questions we do receive quite often and that I think anyone who is insured asks, is how much coverage should I have?
Lauren Ager:
That's a tough question. It really depends on the individual's needs. Um, one of the biggest driving factors is what would be required in any contract. I believe we touched on this a little bit earlier, but if you are going to work at a hospital or receive hospital privileges, many times the hospital will determine the amount of liability coverage you have to have in place or, and also sometimes the type of coverage you have to have in place.
If you're joining a group, then your contract with that group might be determining how much coverage you have in place. Also, sometimes your payer contracts might have a stipulation that you must require a minimum limit of liability. So it really just depends on what your contract needs are or, absent of any of those contracts, you have to determine how much coverage you need based on your exposure. Maybe you are a surgical specialty, you might have a little bit higher risk? Maybe you might wanna carry a little bit higher limits. If you are doing something that's fairly minor and fairly low risk, um, you're not performing surgery, you're patient population is generally healthy, then you might not need to carry as high of limits as some of the other physicians out there.
Tony Passalacqua:
That's kind of what we see with like gyn vs. ob-gyn, right?
Lauren Ager:
Right. So with an ob-gyn you know, if you're delivering babies, there is a really long statute of limitations. And so ob-gyns, you know, could be exposed to a malpractice claim for many years after they deliver a baby.
There are so many variables that factor into the decision on what limits to purchase. TMLT cannot advise you on which limits to get. We have a number of offerings out there for you, though.
Tony Passalacqua:
Do you think that maybe talking to your peers like the, the new-to-practice physician, maybe them talking to their peers is a great way to make a decision around what policy they should get and maybe what limits?
Lauren Ager:
Absolutely. When you're talking with your peers in a certain specialty, in a certain region, they're gonna have a little bit more verifiable evidence of what's worked for them. And they've probably also been talking to their peers out in the community about the appropriate limits to carry.
So it's the great place to start when you're trying to determine what you need to purchase with your malpractice policy.
Tony Passalacqua: Lauren, what are some other criteria new physicians should consider when they're looking at purchasing insurance from different medical malpractice carriers?
Lauren Ager:
There's quite a few things that an individual might want to consider when they're shopping for their malpractice coverage.
One of the most important probably being the financial stability of that company. Should you have paid a policy premium and want to make sure that there's coverage in place, you do not want to be with a carrier that's financially unstable, may potentially become insolvent. It doesn't happen that often in our industry, but it does. It is an important thing to look at.
We talked earlier about, you know, asking your colleagues what limits they might recommend. Some other things you might want to discuss with them are, you know, what is the customer service that you've received when calling in or emailing or trying to just do general business with your carrier? If you've had a malpractice claim, what was your experience with the claims team? Did you feel supported through the process? Were you able to get quick and easy responses? Did that process go smoothly and give you comfort in a time that can be very difficult for a physician? Do they have, you know, robust risk management programs that you can utilize for your practice? Do you have somebody that you can call when you have general questions?
Those are often big distinguishing characteristics between various companies.
What does the policy contract look like? Does the individual have consent to settle in a claim? Or is that right taken away from them? We talked earlier about defense costs. Is that included in the limit of liability that you carry? Or is that something that the company is offering outside of your limit of coverage, so you still have your full limit should there be a settlement or a judgment. What is the company's philosophy on settling claims? On defending claims? Are they quick to settle or are they going to stand side-by-side with you during the claims process and defend you until the end.
Again, these are all questions that may seem maybe a little overwhelming, but it's good to have a conversation with your colleagues just so you can find out what really has come up during the process when you are practicing and thinking about your day-to-day needs.
Tony Passalacqua:
What are some basic tips and tricks that you feel new-to-practice physicians should know about with their new that they have?
Lauren Ager:
It's important to remain transparent with the carrier, to fully disclose all information about your practice. Keep them up to date on any changes in your practice, whether it be adding new staff, changing locations, adding new procedures, you know, anything to make sure that you have the proper coverage endorsed onto your [00:14:00] policy.
If you have not reported a big change in your practice, there is a chance that a claim would not be covered if you didn't properly notify the carrier. Also, if you are a member of a group and somebody else, like an admin is managing the policy for the whole entire group, it would be important to make sure that you still are aware of what coverage you have in place and that should you leave that group that your coverage was properly maintained; tail was purchased if needed.
Tony Passalacqua:
Lauren, do you think an important aspect for new-to-practice physicians to potentially assess is maybe what coverage is needed at their location and how does tail work after?
Lauren Ager:
Yes, absolutely. I think this is one of the most important things that we see come up months or years after a physician leaves the group. If they didn't have a good understanding of who was responsible for what with regards to their malpractice coverage during their time with the group, we've seen physicians that leave and their tail coverage was not properly secured. Therefore, leaving the physician with a bare period and not covered for a period of their time practicing. So it's really important when you start negotiations with a group to make sure that you understand who is responsible for what; who's responsible for paying the annual premium on your policy; and then, should you leave, what happens to that coverage at your time of departure? Will the tail be purchased by your employer or will that be your responsibility?
I think, especially at that time, it is important to follow up and make sure that you do have the documentation. That you do have the proper coverage in place once you terminate your employment with that employer.
Tony Passalacqua:
If you could pick out one or two takeaways for a new to practice physician to remember about buying insurance, what would it be?
Lauren Ager:
I think it's most important to consider what value you're getting for the amount of premium that you're paying. If you're looking for the lowest premium in the market, you might not be getting all of the services - all of the claims support, all of the financial stability that comes with a responsible carrier. And those things are really important when deciding which carrier to purchase your malpractice coverage from.
Tony Passalacqua:
Thank you, Lauren, for joining us in today's podcast.
Lauren Ager:
Thank you for having me.
Tony Passalacqua:
As always, thank you to our listeners. Please feel free to contact us with any questions at 1-800-580-8658 or by checking out our resources by visiting us at www.tmlt.org.
Additional episodes in this series:
Disclaimer
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